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Doubting Bro
JoinedPosts by Doubting Bro
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102
Is the Borg "really" guilty in the Candace Conti case ???
by RubaDub infull disclosure:.
i am an active (2-4 hrs/month) 3rd generation jw hovering under the radar.
been posting here for 10 years.
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What Some Loyal JW's Are Saying About The Oakland Case.
by Bangalore inform the pro-jw site jwtalk.
this is such a ronald mcdonald court case.
i can't believe what i am reading.. lie: "the lawsuit alleged that watchtower had a policy that instructed elders in its jehovah's witnesses congregations to keep reports of child sex abusers within the religious group secret to avoid lawsuits.".
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Doubting Bro
BJR -
I do not think there is any real benefit to this case but to make anyone on the sex offenders list unemployable and pariah to joining groups or organisations. Who would allow any one with even one minor sexual offence to be part of their group if they can be held responsible for his criminal activities by simply being aware of his criminal record!
If they have any contact with children, I don't really have a problem with that. My true feelings are these folks are completely unable to be rehabilitated and should be locked away forever or turned over to the victims family ala the "blood avenger". But, I know that isn't something that will happen.
I will say this, I regularly run a report from my state showing where all the sex offenders are registered in my area. I realize this will not protect my kids 100% but feel that I should use the tools I have available. I know if someone from my hall were to show up on the list, a print out would find it's way on every person's car at the meeting.
With the exception of minors, all convictions are public record but you have to do some work to find it. Megan's law not only reported convictions but also required the offender to register so you could find out their current home and work address. That's the biggest advantage to that law in my opinion because you can easily search by name or zip code and find out where they are.
I really think the jury's reaction was one of anger. These sort of huge judgements are not that uncommon in the US. I'm a little suprised that the judge didn't adjust the $$ especially since the majority of the compensatory damages were "pain and suffering".
I'm sure we'll be talking about this case for awhile as it moves up the appeal chain.
Don't you think though that the Society could do a better job in how these types of cases are handled? Don't you think that maybe parents can be warned when someone is accused of something so terrible as sexual abuse?
Regardless of the appeal ruling, I really hope that the WTS takes a good hard look at their current policies and makes it so this problem has a solution that will shield children from these sick individuals. At the end of the day, doesn't everyone want children to be as safe as possible. But, maybe that's just a pipedream. Look at how many millions the Catholic Church as paid out and yet they still have issues. I don't know what the right answer is.
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Doubting Bro
I know of an individual that was an elder (married at the time) who had sex with a regular pioneer (not his wife, single)while waiting in the car while 2 other publishers were in the house at a long RV! The house was in the country so I guess no passerbye's could see. It came out later when this same elder was caught by his now ex-wife getting it on with another congregation member in the elder's bedroom. Wifie was supposed to be at work but came home early to that! I guess he detailed all his exploits to the JC.
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What Some Loyal JW's Are Saying About The Oakland Case.
by Bangalore inform the pro-jw site jwtalk.
this is such a ronald mcdonald court case.
i can't believe what i am reading.. lie: "the lawsuit alleged that watchtower had a policy that instructed elders in its jehovah's witnesses congregations to keep reports of child sex abusers within the religious group secret to avoid lawsuits.".
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Doubting Bro
Bobjohnrob,
First, thanks for participating in what I believe to be a civil, rational discussion of these sensitive issues. All too often, when individuals come to the board to present a more pro-JW point of view, the mud tends to fly from both sides very quickly. So, I really appreciate your input.
A couple of points:
1 - I'm not an attorney so I can't really comment on whether there were appealable errors. When I first saw this story, my first thought was that they were clearly going to appeal. I think the punitive damages portion is going to be reviewed but the 3 to 1 ratio between the compensatory and punitive award seems in line with the limits the Surpreme Court has established. In cases where a huge award is granted, many times the corporations and plaintiffs will settle prior to appeal for an amount much less than the award. However, I don't see that happening because the WTS realizes that if this case stands, they will need to brace themselves for many more lawsuits. Also, it seems like this plaintiff doesn't appear inclined to settle. I believe they will take this one ultimately to at least the CA Supreme Court and perhaps to the US Supreme Court if they can make a constitutional argument.
2 - I think both sides viewed this as a landmark case because it's the largest verdict of its kind. If this verdict stands (which it may not, who knows), I do believe that the theory will be used in other cases against other institutions (religious and otherwise). It will be interesting to see if other religions file "friend of the court" briefs in support of the WTS. My guess is they will because they know that if this case stands, they'll be next in line.
3 - According to the San Francisco Chronicle report http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2012/06/15/BAUQ1P2PH2.DTL Kendrick was a MS at one point and was removed due to the incident involving his stepdaughter which the elders handled but was never reported to the police. While a MS is the lowest level of oversight a person can have, it does create a level of trust with some members of the congregation. It doesn't with me because I was a MS then an elder and I know firsthand that they are no better or worse than anyone else. I believe the argument was that if the congregation had been warned when Kendrick was removed in 1993 of the reason why he was removed, then the abuse committed against Conti would not have occurred because her parents would have never allowed her near this person.
4 - I don't believe the sex registery was place in 1994 because the Megan's Law legislation wasn't passed until 1996. But, he was convicted in 1994 for the abuse against his stepdaughter. While you mention it was a misdemeanor sexual battery, that still will put you on the sex offender registration list. I'm not sure it's fair to say the police viewed him as no danger, he was convicted of a crime. That's still serious.
5 - The fact that most predators groom their victims and that it's usually from a close circle is a potential argument as to why he could be trusted in field service with an responsible person going with him. But, religious connections are often used to gain trust with the potential victim just like charity connections (Boy Scouts and Sandusky for 2 examples). It's not a JW specific issue, it's just that within a religious congregation, there's a level of trust that is higher than it is within the general population. Trust is what these guys use to gain access.
6 - I would say that among born-in's (both my wife and I fit that), we watch our kids like hawks. Both of us have friends that have been abused by either JWs or non-JW family members and therefore trust very few people. But, my mother-in-law put my wife in several dangerous situations because she was a convert who thought that once you became a JW, you were in a spiritual paradise in which no one would do anything bad. Fortunately, my wife was never abused but came close a few times. I know that I often went in service with elders/ms/other publishers without my parents being around and for the most part, everyone trusted each other. It's a tough situation because your told that everyone is your brother and sister. But parents do need to exercise caution. As for the clergy thing, many churches have only one pastor and aren't necessarily set up the way JWs are so it's not likely they could grab a partner. I'm not familar with other religions policy on being alone with parishioners so can't really comment on how they handle that situation.
7 - I agree with you on your statement that the elders knew about Condi's abuse and condoned it. It seems unlikely that they would have done nothing since they had already removed Kendrick for sexual misconduct with his stepdaugher. I'm sure some may be saying that but I didn't get the sense from articles and documents that I've read so far that the individual elders were aware of the abuse. It's just that they knew Kendrick offended before and didn't tell parents about the potential for abuse. I would say that if those elders did know about it then they should be charged as accessories to the abuse. I don't believe that most JWs or most people in general would condone abuse.
Sorry for the length!
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63
What Some Loyal JW's Are Saying About The Oakland Case.
by Bangalore inform the pro-jw site jwtalk.
this is such a ronald mcdonald court case.
i can't believe what i am reading.. lie: "the lawsuit alleged that watchtower had a policy that instructed elders in its jehovah's witnesses congregations to keep reports of child sex abusers within the religious group secret to avoid lawsuits.".
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Doubting Bro
And the judgement against the WTS was due to their lack of warning. They are not going to be subject to criminal charges as far as I understand it. And I don't think they should be. But, they've got to put something in place that helps parents know when predators are in the congregation.
I really think this is a continuation of the judgements against the Catholic Church and others. Society in general is sick and tired of institutions not doing more to protect the innocent.
I also think that if this judgment stands on appeal, it will be used to hold institutions responsible for damage that they may have been able to prevent. It will cause a change in the way people deal with sexual abuse.
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63
What Some Loyal JW's Are Saying About The Oakland Case.
by Bangalore inform the pro-jw site jwtalk.
this is such a ronald mcdonald court case.
i can't believe what i am reading.. lie: "the lawsuit alleged that watchtower had a policy that instructed elders in its jehovah's witnesses congregations to keep reports of child sex abusers within the religious group secret to avoid lawsuits.".
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Doubting Bro
They're investigating according to the reports. I have no idea what the hold up on criminal charges being pressed but the civil suit doesn't have anything to do with the criminal investigation.
I'm not sure what one matter being driven by a private citizen has to do with the policy bringing criminal charges. They're certainly not waiting on the outcome of the civil case.
I recall seeing cases where both criminal and civil litigation being carried on at the same time. It doesn't always have to be the criminal case first. And, I remember the OJ Simpson trial where he was acquitted on the criminal charge but lost his civil suit.
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What Some Loyal JW's Are Saying About The Oakland Case.
by Bangalore inform the pro-jw site jwtalk.
this is such a ronald mcdonald court case.
i can't believe what i am reading.. lie: "the lawsuit alleged that watchtower had a policy that instructed elders in its jehovah's witnesses congregations to keep reports of child sex abusers within the religious group secret to avoid lawsuits.".
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Doubting Bro
Well, this piece of scum was convicted in 2004 for yet another molestation and is listed on the CA sexual predator list. I agree that he should have never gotten out of prison because he's just going to offend again. But, at least everyone around him knows that he's a predator and won't be allowed near kids by certain institutions (the WTS not being one of them at this point).
It's not really a trade-off but 2 separate issues. The police are investigating the Conti case and hopefully they'll be able to put together a good enough case to get a criminal conviction. But, even then, I think the law is way too soft on these folks and they'll be out offending again. I personally think they should have a life sentence because of the point you inferred, that pedophiles don't EVER stop offending.
But, I'm not sure why you think that the victim pursuing a civil case is somehow preventing the criminal investigation? The police are the ones driving the criminal investigation not Ms Conti. The only thing Ms. Conti had within her power was a civil suit. So what was she supposed to do? Wait?
The WTS needs to do the moral thing and WARN members in the congregation when they have a convicted sex offender, NOTIFY the police with full details (not call from a pay phone and provide the least amount of information possible which is what the WT lawyers advise elders when they are in a mandatory reporting state).
I really hope this verdict causes them to change their policy to favor the alleged victim over the alleged abuser.
The only thing the WTS (and many other institutions) cares about more than its reputation is money. Now, they're looking at a hit to both. Hopefully, they'll do the right thing.
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What Some Loyal JW's Are Saying About The Oakland Case.
by Bangalore inform the pro-jw site jwtalk.
this is such a ronald mcdonald court case.
i can't believe what i am reading.. lie: "the lawsuit alleged that watchtower had a policy that instructed elders in its jehovah's witnesses congregations to keep reports of child sex abusers within the religious group secret to avoid lawsuits.".
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Doubting Bro
It seems to me the main objective here was to get the WTS (and other religious institutions) to do more to protect kids from this sort of abuse. Even the Boy Scouts and Penn State are facing similar issues. You can't convict a corporation of this sort of crime, but you can punish their lack of reasonable action via the civil system.
Bottom line, entities that are given trust such as religious entities, youth organizations and schools must do everything in their power to protect kids. The WTS has shown that they care more about their reputation than they do about their children.
Even if this verdict is overturned on appeal (which would mean there was some sort of technical error made by the trial judge) I think the jury sent a loud and clear message to all these organizations that this type of behavior is not tolerated. They must do everything in their power to protect children and warn parents in their congregations and people in the community about the abuser. This individual was going door to door under the direction of elders who are directly appointed by the WTS.
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Reduction of Announcements
by wisdomfrombelow instarting the week of september 3rd they will cease having local announcement as part of the service meeting.
is there going to be a much reduction of the letters sent to the congregation?
will everyone be expected to read the bulletin board to know what is going on?
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Doubting Bro
That still wouldn't limit their liability because they would still have JC's, find out about abuse and fail to warn anyone. The only way I can see them limiting their liability for rank & file pedos is to eliminiate the whole JC structure. There's no way they would do that because then they wouldn't have any hammer and lose complete control.
They'd still have liability for elders/ms but you're talking about a much smaller pool of people.
Then again, I'd would have never thought they would eliminate the book study or quit charging for literature either.
This is very strange. Wisdomfrombelow, what's your source?
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Interesting Commentary in New Statesman Article About Candace Conti
by DT inhere is the article http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/world-affairs/2012/06/secrets-and-lies-have-no-place-when-dealing-child-abuse.
here are some quotes.. "jim mccabe, a lawyer for the jehovah's witness congregation, said that they plan to appeal the decision, contending that kendrick was just a member of the north fremont congregation, not a leader or pastor.
he said: "this is a tragic case where a member of a religious group has brought liability on the group for actions he alone may have taken."".
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Doubting Bro
I agree with the author. Too many times in the past, organizations have chosen to cover things up rather than stop a sicko from harming kids because they're worried about their reputation. Look at the RCC and the mess it's in over this stuff. Not just the pedophile issues but that butler being charged with theft over the leaking of documents showing corruption. And, with the Penn State/Sandusky trail, this issue is even more in the news.
It's especially angering to me and to most people when organizations that are supposed to be looking out for your best interests engage in this type of behavior.
Religious organizations need to put a stop to this vile behavior! I always thought that the only way you'll get their attention is via a civil suit with a large judgement. Well, I guess not only the WTS but other religions have just received a big wake up call.
This isn't about holding the WTS responsible for the actions of one of their members but rather holding them responsible for THEIR INACTION in giving the most basic level of protection to their members and to the public at large. This scumbag was and maybe still is going from door to door.
How much you want to bet that other religions will be filing "friend of the court" briefs supporting the WTS position on appeal? The only thing organized religion cares about is their pocketbook.